Forge Making

Hiya all,
so today's the day...no not my birthday but close enough. the day i can finally afford to go out and get some things to start my life of metal and fire (sounds cooler that way ) So there I was layin in bed the night before and i had to ponder this.
I have 2 empty fire extinguishers a big one and a smaller 2 lb one and the idea was to use the bigger one with some refractory cement for my very first forge. Now the cement I had in mind was the Canadia tire Hi temp imperial. I have watched a lot of youtube forge making videos and a good portion use refractory cement, some people are using cement rated for 1200 degrees which to me seems a bit dangerous, the imperial is just shy of 1500 C.

With all that being said another idea i had was to cut the fire extinguisher in half (leaving a back piece for a closed forge but potentially making it hinged/removable if needed) and to place the half on some fire bricks with a lining of refractory all around of course. I have seen someone using an old propane bottle which again is a possibility.
And lastly I do intend on getting in to metal casting at some point as well, I will note even when forging I actually plan to start with bronze as its easier to learn with and when casting I could make some pretty neat things. However this brings about a question in itself.

and So! Now my questions are:

Should I use refractory cement at all?
if so is the cheap stuff from Canadian tire ok to use?
Because i wish to cast at some point (atleast bronze anyway) should I look at getting higher quality cement/blanket or will the basic firebrick refractory set up be ok to make a small foudry with as well?

Lastly any comments/recommendations on designs are always welcome, Im new to it and im just learning as I go.

Lastly so you all know I have read some posts here and done quite a bit of research. I dont like asking questions without having some answers of my own first.

--Basic tools--
http://www.canadianknifemaker.ca/index.php?threads/beginner-tool-set.1278/
---Ordering is recommended here quite often---
http://www.tuckerspottery.com/tkps/

 

You probably want about 6" diameter when finished or similar with K23 brick. I used the Imperial brand hi-temp stove and furnace cement as a thin protective liner on 2" of ceramic blanket. I expect to replace the cement as it flakes off over time. Although the guys are Pottery Supply House were really helpful, I ended up calling Alliance Refractories in West Edmonton and they gave me a few square feet of 1" blanket for free. They are not retail and deal in truckload orders only.
A 20 pound propane bottle sitting vertical with 2" of blanket inside is pretty common for serious melter. A single 3/4" LPG Venturi burner and a firebrick lid will get you into all kinds of heat.

I made my forge so that it can sit on its feet in the regular horizontal position or stand on a fire brick in the vertical position. Something to think about.

 

Ah this is very informative.
Thank you for the pottery supply link as well as the information on Alliance Refractories, I will call them tomorrow and see if they are willing to part with a little more or if need be purchase some from the supply store.
Also your design is actually on par with an idea I have been pondering since I started looking at designs, a 2 in 1 forge and foundry Beautiful !
Alas I do have a question.
With the set up you have there Im curious, is it possible to heat steel hot enough to forge weld and/or if using it as a kiln does it get hot enough to melt metal in without destroying the forge. I know that melting wrought Iron or even steel requires a huge amount of heat and I wouldn't be surprised if it could not melt high heat metals like that, besides that If it dosnt have the capability for molten Iron thats quite alright, as like i said im starting with bronze.
Whether or not I should invest in a system capable of huge heat or not rite off the bat or make another one later on...i dunno...

Also I know I mentioned the two fire extinguishers, the smaller of the two i was going to use as a crucibal. Ive heard it being ok for lower heat metals though Id get a proper crucibal when upgrading.

Is it possible to get a couple more pictures, Im actually quite intrigued by this design, is the back sealed or is it open? Open rite?!?

 

Daniel, the forge body is only part of the equation. A well designed LPG burner is the other main factor. My build can be found on my blog. http://dcknives.blogspot.ca/p/gas-forge.html The back has a small opening for long objects. The two burners allows me to selectively heat the interior, whether vertical or horizontal. I can also slide a firebrick in and run only the front burner making an efficient half forge.

It will certainly reach welding temperature with one burner. I am not so sure I'd want to melt steel as the flares on the burner will suffer. I plan on doing some aluminum casting this winter.

Let us know how it comes together.

Dan

 

Hey, Cool I was just looking up the burner on the web here. thats wicked awesome man thanks for sharing. Im thinking with all this information now that I have enough to get a solid build and actually start something soon.
When I do Ill make sure to post about it and credit you for all the help. Thank you SO much!
I know that the gears only the start of it all!

 

lots of good info out there before you commit to your specs, options and forge design..........keep it simple works best

 

I planned to do a forge out of a fire extinguisher too but changed directions and built a vertical out of a propane tank. I lined it with kaowool and coated it with the refractory cement from Canadian Tire.

 

I much enjoyed your vertical tank build. For Daniel's reference it is here:
http://www.canadianknifemaker.ca/index.php?threads/build-your-own-forge.106/

Dan

 

Hey sorry guys I didn't see all the replies haha Im getting the pieces for the burner today and i like the design dancom shows being capable of vertical and horizontal. I'm also going to look at a higher quality wool so i can use it as a foundry. though i don't know what I'm going to coat it with. (nothing?) I'll use the extinguisher for a crucibal when casting bronze for now until i get used to working with metal and i make all my tools ext.

 

Anyone got a link for making a venturie burner?

 

Sorry i know this is usually fround upon posting more them once but i missed the edit time to delete it. found it on that site :/

 

From Ron Reil's page: https://www.abana.org/ronreil/burnerdoc.shtml

This guy made an Instructable: http://www.instructables.com/id/how-to-build-a-gas-forge-burner/

Dan

 

have you considered blown forge yet ? if you have some free time you should read up on them as well.........I started with a venturi as well as most do , made the change........way better

 

I may have a few blower motors lying around. Not sure the condition, but they are free to a good home.

 

you just meen a forge with a blower inserted? If that's the case i thought that was pretty much standard neccesity. Was going to do that AND use a venturi burner. Also since I'm already writing I'm thinking of a different way to make a venturi burner, a small mod to dancoms dual burner design but one that has an ajustable air supply. Second, ive got almost all the parts for the standard burner but not for the venturi mod. Also i'd like some feefback on the venturi design im thinking about as it may have some flaw i don't realize. Though from what i understand it just needs air and a reducer.

sorry the crossed out sections were my initial thinkings haha.

 

Daniel,

The shape of the air intake creates the vacuum that sucks the air into the the tube and mixes with the fuel vapour which is being jetted under pressure. This is a naturally aspirated burner and no additional air supply is necessary. The best part is that it based on the shape of the air piping. The reduction at the inlet and the flare at the output create a stable and powerful flame with very few parts and zero moving parts. You will find many uses for a decent burner even if your forging needs outgrow it.

The blower types require a motor, blower and electricity or some mechanical air mover to operate. Alternately an air compressor can be used to boost air.

Take a look at Cal's burner, and how Kevin used it in his build. By all accounts they are awesome heat producers and super-efficient.

http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?103607-New-burner
http://www.canadianknifemaker.ca/index.php?threads/first-forge-build.1381/

Dan

 

Thank you once more. I did not realize it had to go from wide to small to wide again. I looked at the design of the burner in the second post there But I would like to be able to control the amount of air intake as well. I seen a design somewhere that had an adjustable air intake. Hence the design up there (though now i relize it does indeed have a problem).
Do you think being able to control the amount of air intake would be worth it?

 

Hi Daniel,

Yes, the shape of the intake causes air to be sucked in proportion to the fuel, so increasing the flow of LPG increases the air. There is a limit though. This is the same basic bell shape that is found in a domestic gas furnace burner. Additional air is not needed if the burner design is sound and fuel orifice is sized is to match.

Additional air is needed if the air to fuel mixture is rich (too much fuel for the volume of air). If this is the case, blowing air in or shooting a few psi of compressed air in will get your mixture right. It needs to be around 100 to 1 air to fuel.

IMHO, the Reil burner is simple an easy to get parts for. It's proven and a good way to get your feet wet in burner making. Best of all nothing other than the LPG feed is needed to make it work.
A plus for me with a basic Venturi burner is it works without electricity. I can forge outside without a extension cords or a compressor hose.

If you need help with sourcing parts I've been through some similar builds and know where to find the fittings around town.

Cheers,

Dan

 

Daniel ,

you'll probably get overwhelmed with the options available...
T-Rex burners are apparently excellent as well
then there is ribbon burners , so you can see there are no shortage of options..........horizontal , vertical , all tasters choice

there is a good discussion on another forum at the moment , venturi vs forced air........
met with a master Bladesmith recently down in Oregon , was great to tour his shop, a guy that really knows his stuff and very well respected in the industry......anyways lots of good info to be had out there but the experience all preach the same , keep it simple.....

couple points on the recent thread above........(note - this is their input on ribbon burner not mine Daniel) as I dont have one (yet).......

"Check out the Ribbon Burner attachment (google ribbon burner).
It will give you a more uniform and controllable flame. It is also quieter and my biggest problem at first was keeping it from getting to hot. I had 2 one inch T-Rex burners before I converted to the Ribbon Burner. The only reason that I see for going with an atmospheric burner is when electricity is not available."

"Better to go with horizontal. ( users choice ) With a vertical forge you don't have anywhere for the stock to lay. With the Ribbon Burner you can control the air and gas just like a oxy/fuel torch. If you add to much gas and not enough air you will get a cooler burn but you can adjust it so that you have a reducing flame (less scale) and hot flame. You just have to find that sweet spot. It isn't to hard after you have used it for a little while."

"I think that in time everyone who has available electricity will go to the Ribbon Burner. Especially if they are doing Damascus and fluxless welds."

Quote from another informative page , re Reil vs Trex
Note: install one T-Rex burner on my four burner forge. It is rather amazing how different it is from the "Reil" burner it replaced. My four burner forge could easily run with only two of these burners, and would probably be hotter than I can achieve with the four Reil burners running, and would use less fuel too. I doubt I will install all four of them on this forge as it would be a waste of two burners. I would never use more than two of them, and only rarely more than one."

 

Thank you for the input Rob, I Have looked at that particular thread a couple times actually and ive also seen a venturi ribbon burner on youtube (yeah lets make this complicated @.@)
I would at some point likely want to try my hand at some Damascus though thats in my further future. For now A good venturi design would be wonderful enough i think.
Also I am currently in the process of reading a book and there is a great venturi design in it that has an air choke and matches what i already have built and so adding on to it should be simple enough.

I also have seen on youtube a combined venturi and blower forge. now how practical it is im not sure and Im certain that id need a better quality insulation for that at the very least. So since it would require an upgrade of insulation if I ever do have to, Id contemplate going with ribbon burner at that time.
But for starting out where I am and doing what I intend to. I think the current setup I have on the go shall be amazing to start with